PS3SDK release date

[edepot]

Is the PS3SDK going to be on top of Linux? Or is it going to rewrite everything and provide a basic OS? I am thinking that on the one hand Linux has had a lot of work done already, but on the other hand, because you only need to worry about just a few peripherals, all those bloat to make linux work on other computers may not be the best way to go. I am thinking maybe if the PS3SDK can provide the tools for someone to create a second PS3 Home in case the official PS3 Home doesn't allow homebrew. If you want to know about PS3 home, and why it should allow homebrew... read on... otherwise just skip the below cut and paste.


Philosophy seems to branch out into various different tracts on the mental level, but did you know that the mental level is vastly influenced by external stimulai. How you deal with the environmental stimulai provides your mental outlook on the world. It is thus that it is very important that the way you perceive the world the way you grew up be examined closely to better understand the origins of your philosophy on life.

What most people don't know is that the way they think of the world has a profound impact on the world in general. Lets take an example of the usual model of advancement. Since caveman times, people's main instinct was to hunt and eat (food and shelter). The main purpose in their philosophy was to be able to find the next meal and a place warm to sleep. That is how the genes tuned for.

But as time went on there was a change in environmental stimulai. This new stimulai for success was geared towards getting an education first, then get a job, then get money, THEN you can get food and shelter with your money. In other words, you can get arrested for finding shelter and food (the basic building block of the caveman gene) because the shelter and food now has monetary value, and tresspassing and stealing became associated with skipping the education, job, and money stages of the environmental stimulai.

It is because of this tug-o-war between genetic and external environment created by society that you get different forms of governments. (socialism, capitalism, etc) to deal with the problems of enforcing societal behavior on instinctive drives. One of these byproducts is the market economy. You may be asking, how is this related to philosophy? Well, you can read about the current state of economy based on a small section of the high tech industry....

One of the major trends happening in the world today is the ability for products that impact as many people as possible in a positive manner. One of these products is the games that perks the interest of, and exercises the mind. There are of course many different ways that good
can come from products. Besides the above, some companies like google, ebay, etc, create products that allow the consumers a cut into
making a living. In these two examples, the ability to offer advertisement on webpages, and selling stuff on the internet. Because the human population is growing at an exponential rate, there will probably come a time when the amount of companies that exists to provide products to people and hire people (to give them an income) will reach a period of static growth and even decline in growth because there are only so many companies that can compete making the same widgets. So as more
and more things get automated, it is inevitable that there will be more and more people and less and less companies. This will lead to
major changes that needs to implemented to keep many people around the world sustainable (living).
So it is with this trend of google and ebay that game platforms need to be opened up to allow programmers and people who want to sell stuff to be able to do so on these platforms. Unfortunately ebay is not totally free to use. If Sony were to allow Home an easy
way for people to offer products to sell (and maybe use paypal or similar ways to make a profit), and if the PS3 were opened up to allow people to create games (like how the PC allowed programmers and in the end game companies to form), then it would offer something more of a value then just a game console.

Since the recent trend for people to purchase stuff off of the console network, it would be inevitable that the best would be for people to
offer their software (homebrew, games, apps, whatever even other things) off of PS3 Home. But because the console network is currently
proprietary and not free, it has to be opened up, if not in Home, in the Linux area of the PS3 (swapped out for a better 3D OS) This
is, of course, the best feasible way in the
case that people are not smart enough to use the linux partition to create another market place (given that the 3d rsx is a roadblock). The
thing holding back linux is that it is extremely un-user friendly. There are too many versions, and getting software to run on different versions
requires to much setup problems that limits the market for any type of programs or games.

Well, you may be asking, why not just get a cheap PC to do it? The main problem with the PC is that it is not marketed as efficiently and cheaply as the consoles. Given the that price of the console is subsidized by blu-ray games, it is being essentially given away freely given what you get for the money. For example you can never purchase a PC (even without
the lcd monitor) with the full feature list of a PS3 at USD$399. Just add up the prices of a nVidia 7600, 8core processor, 256MB, 40GB harddrive,
blu-ray/DVD/CD player, basic motherboard with wifi, usb, bluetooth, eithernet, and a remote controller with charger and you will reach beyond $800 (actually it is somewhat higher, if someone wants a true breakdown).

So given this situation, and the problem of windows OS higher than the price of one PS3 (check the price of the full-featured version of vista, and that is WITHOUT the hardware), and linux not user friendly and too varied with too many libraries preventing a common platform for releasing software for, perhaps another unconstrained opened market on the console would do a lot of good.

So what does this mean? Well, it means that a good business model these days are those that provide free stuff to people but still make a profit at the same time. An even better model is one where the people can actually make money in addition to getting free services.

You may be familiar with some of them: TV. It is free to watch, and they make money via the advertisements. Similar with radio programs. There was even NetZero with free internet access way back when.

Similar models are popping up with free phone calls. In the near future transportation should be free as well. You just have to think of a creative model. There are currently free trips to las vegas if you go visit a casino. Perhaps one day the advertisments on buses and subways will exceed the operating costs such that people can get on them for free, subsidized by the advertisers. This model could work for food (advertisments on food products that you open up before eating). Even shelter (

Now with the more popular internet, you get services with google (like yahoo before), but this time people can actually make a profit, which is an advanced model mentioned above. What this is doing is pushing the publishers to the masses. Before, there were TV stations that accepted money from advertisers and used them to publish to everyone on TV. Now regular people have their own channel (webpages with text and video) that offer advertisements. With google providing the middle man between you and the advertisers, and also the channel guide for you to find stuff to watch (their search engine).


So the better business model is one that can sustain as many people as possible, and thus PS3 Home, when opened up could provide an internet version 2.0 with the publishers not just publishing websites, but programs, games and even products they sell virtually.

So philosophically, the mind of the animal in these days is made up of enforced tug-o-war between striving for basic instincts and striving for the middle layer to reach those instincts.

[emoon]

Im too lazy to read the whole text but to reply to the first statement.

Its going to be a own very basic kernel and will not be based on Linux. It will be made for the PS3 only and thus not needed to be general purpose as Linux needs to be.

[AngryAce]

I could not agree with you more, i'm tired of waiting around for sony to make games, i would know countless pc owners, who would go out an d buy a ps3 if they knew they could develop for it, who wants to get linux when its so complicated, operates sluggish, and its available in too many versions. User friendly is what we need, and i couldnt agree more, i just want to make my own game. PS3 would truly be a more dominant console to allow its users to create custom games. I don't want a little big planet, i want a big big planet.

I dont want a clan, i want a indie dev team. If they released something that had restrictions, that ultimately blocks out the option of hacking or cheating on other games, they would be moving in the right direction? whats the worst that could happen? They would be competing with the consumer? They just want the upper hand. With linux, i guess thats what they have for now.

[d-range]

I could not agree with you more, i'm tired of waiting around for sony to make games, i would know countless pc owners, who would go out an d buy a ps3 if they knew they could develop for it, who wants to get linux when its so complicated, operates sluggish, and its available in too many versions. User friendly is what we need, and i couldnt agree more, i just want to make my own game. PS3 would truly be a more dominant console to allow its users to create custom games. I don't want a little big planet, i want a big big planet.

I dont want a clan, i want a indie dev team. If they released something that had restrictions, that ultimately blocks out the option of hacking or cheating on other games, they would be moving in the right direction? whats the worst that could happen? They would be competing with the consumer? They just want the upper hand. With linux, i guess thats what they have for now.

If you really think linux on PS3 is 'too complicated' just forget about writing your own games then. Using an OS is nowhere near as difficult as developing software. Even more so, in my experience developing on Windows is often more difficult than on Linux, because if you need stuff that's not accessible directly from the IDE, you only have the crappy cmd.exe and no sensible toolchain at all, unless you start installing cygwin and other gnu tools. Which in itself is already a big hassle compared to doing a standard Ubuntu install + dev packages.

Anyway, I agree that it would be great to have a real indie development scene for PS3. A bit like XNA but without the restrictions MS puts on it. If Sony would just open up the freaking RSX on linux and provide some tools to launch prepared linux binaries directly from the XMB, we'd already be there.

[gambiting]

I could not agree with you more, i'm tired of waiting around for sony to make games, i would know countless pc owners, who would go out an d buy a ps3 if they knew they could develop for it, who wants to get linux when its so complicated, operates sluggish, and its available in too many versions. User friendly is what we need, and i couldnt agree more, i just want to make my own game. PS3 would truly be a more dominant console to allow its users to create custom games. I don't want a little big planet, i want a big big planet.

I dont want a clan, i want a indie dev team. If they released something that had restrictions, that ultimately blocks out the option of hacking or cheating on other games, they would be moving in the right direction? whats the worst that could happen? They would be competing with the consumer? They just want the upper hand. With linux, i guess thats what they have for now.

It will be a WAAAAAAAAAAAAY easier for you(for anyone actually) to learn how to operate an OS,than create a new game.Bigger games,like for example Oblivion,takes 3+ years to produce,and believe me,only ~60% of this time is spend for writing game engine.You would need people who could make great story,great graphics,great music,and a real staff of people who will know how to put it all up together.And you would need to pay them lots of money,while not being sure you will get them back,or get any profit from it.And with this linux-crap talk of yours - if you are a SERIOUS game developer,you won't play around with something that's more like a gadget on PS3(personally,I use linux all the time,I don't even have windows on my PC).Serious game developer will buy a genuine Sony's SDK for thousands of dollars,but he will get all documentation he needs,technical help,and he will be able to sell his game on blu-ray discs.

[ps2devman]

ps3sdk will be perfect for small, non commercial (free) things, possibly launched from web sites, like flash games, but with some impressive spu-related features (and optional rsx-related features)...

What kills small size games? Lack of graphics, mainly textures. Can math help? Yes. There are ways to use some algo from some seed values to create interesting large HI-Def textures (take a look at tmbinc's gpu demo for 360). But does it take time? Depends on calculation power... Wait! We have 6 spu's! We have an interesting combo here!

[gambiting]

ps3sdk will be perfect for small, non commercial (free) things, possibly launched from web sites, like flash games, but with some impressive spu-related features (and optional rsx-related features)...

What kills small size games? Lack of graphics, mainly textures. Can math help? Yes. There are ways to use some algo from some seed values to create interesting large HI-Def textures (take a look at tmbinc's gpu demo for 360). But does it take time? Depends on calculation power... Wait! We have 6 spu's! We have an interesting combo here!

Try kkrieger from farbrausch - proof that you can make a playable game with Doom 3 graphics that's smaller than 128kb( yes,KILO BYTES,including textures,music and everything).Just try it or you won't believe it - also try their Debris demo - the most amazing demo I've ever seen(it's 177kb).

[AngryAce]

I find it kinda stupid that linux is "blocking out 3d" whats the point in even wanting to waste my time when i feel i am restricted on my own system. I think i am just gunna wait around for the new update, or sdk, could the reason for them blocking out 3d be because they want us to use their official sdk?

[IronAvatar]

I find it kinda stupid that linux is "blocking out 3d" whats the point in even wanting to waste my time when i feel i am restricted on my own system. I think i am just gunna wait around for the new update, or sdk, could the reason for them blocking out 3d be because they want us to use their official sdk?

I think the main reason that Sony are blocking 3D access is that they don't want to be held responsible for allowing people to gain knowledge about the hardware that doesn't belong to them (Sony). Even though the RSX is based on an existing chipset, there's still a lot of proprietry stuff on there and the last thing Sony want is a legal battle because they weren't stringent enough in protecting nVidia's trade secrets.

Take a look at Sony's behaviour in the past. On the PS1, they encouraged homebrew with the Net Yaroze kits, even though they didn't document the 3d functionality of the GTE. Actually, if I remember rightly, even official developers didn't have full access to the instructions of a lot of the 3d stuff, having to rely on some sort of macro/C type thing which was then assembled into instructions for the GTE during compilation.

Then there's the PS2. Even though Linux was a bit of a cripple on it, they pretty much opened up all of the features of the GS, including full documentation.

My point is, Sony aren't against people using hardware that is soley owned by them, to which there are no complicated ownership agreements. If you think it's bad not having access to the RSX, then think about the situation for licensed developers back in the N64 days.

The N64 did all of its hardware transformation in the graphics chip (the RCP), and it was actually done through a programmable pipe-line. Most updates to the compiler and tools would also bring a new version of the microcode that was to be uploaded to the RCP. The RCP was quite a neat piece of silicon, as it's very similar in concept to the way the GS/VU1 combination works on the PS2.

Anyhow....many people would encounter weird bugs with different versions of the microcode, the team I was working with on an N64 game included. Nintendo wouldn't fix it at the time, and we couldn't fix it ourselves because there were no details on programming the RCP available to licensed developers! And the only reason Nintendo would not give out information on the RCP was (we were told) because it was proprietry hardware from SGI, and there was a non-disclosure agreements in place.

It wasn't until Nintendo killed the N64 that there was an article in Game Developer from one of the guys at Nintendo on how to program the RCP. In fact, it wasn't just showing you how to program, but how to generate curves bi-cubic surfaces on the RCP! Great! But couldn't you guys have done that five years earlier?

So...Sony have always been pretty neat at allowing access to their hardware, as long as it's something where there are no complicated IP issues.

If anything, maybe a lot of younger programmer with a PS3 should look at this as an oppurtunity to get back to the basics of 3d graphics. After all, I remember it being a hell of a lot of fun writing my own rasterizer back in the days before 3d accelleration. I reckon a lot of you kids have been spoiled rotten with out-of-the-box rendering and API's.

Time to learn some REAL coding perhaps? (I'm kidding...before I upset anybody)

[ralferoo]

I find it kinda stupid that linux is "blocking out 3d" whats the point in even wanting to waste my time when i feel i am restricted on my own system.

Most people who bought the PS3 for prgramming did so because the cell processor is the unqiue thing that makes it fun to develop for.

If you actually bought a PS3 for homebrew development expecting a GPU to be available, then quite simply you should have taken time to research before buying. Sony have stated from day 1 that they do not support user access to the RSX from Other OS.

If anything, maybe a lot of younger programmer with a PS3 should look at this as an oppurtunity to get back to the basics of 3d graphics. After all, I remember it being a hell of a lot of fun writing my own rasterizer back in the days before 3d accelleration. I reckon a lot of you kids have been spoiled rotten with out-of-the-box rendering and API's.

Well, I'm not that young, but that's exactly what I'm up to... :) So far I've got bilinear filtered texture mapping working that fills about half a 720p screen at 60fps with one SPE. So, there is definitely progress being made on this front... You can see an old video at www.spugl.com I believe there are others working on rasterisers too...

[ps2devman]

Don't forget why RSX access is so great too... Textures in extra 256Mb!

Can we still, in 2.10, upload textures in gpu-side ram and have spu based rendering code use textures uploaded in gpu-side ram?

If it's possible, that will be great. If not, there will be an interesting difference between PS3's able to grab RSX access and others... (plenty of free ram in cpu-side ram!)

[IronAvatar]

I find it kinda stupid that linux is "blocking out 3d" whats the point in even wanting to waste my time when i feel i am restricted on my own system.

Most people who bought the PS3 for prgramming did so because the cell processor is the unqiue thing that makes it fun to develop for.

If you actually bought a PS3 for homebrew development expecting a GPU to be available, then quite simply you should have taken time to research before buying. Sony have stated from day 1 that they do not support user access to the RSX from Other OS.

If anything, maybe a lot of younger programmer with a PS3 should look at this as an oppurtunity to get back to the basics of 3d graphics. After all, I remember it being a hell of a lot of fun writing my own rasterizer back in the days before 3d accelleration. I reckon a lot of you kids have been spoiled rotten with out-of-the-box rendering and API's.

Well, I'm not that young, but that's exactly what I'm up to... :) So far I've got bilinear filtered texture mapping working that fills about half a 720p screen at 60fps with one SPE. So, there is definitely progress being made on this front... You can see an old video at www.spugl.com I believe there are others working on rasterisers too...

That's really quite impressive! Good work....I'm also doing some rasterization, but nothing too fancy because it's not my main goal. I'm wanting to port some physics code to the Cell and need something to visualize the objects :)

I'm aiming more for per-pixel lighting on polys without textures for my rasterizer. But after seeing that vid, it makes me want to raise the bar a little :)

[PvL2008]

So far I've got bilinear filtered texture mapping working that fills about half a 720p screen at 60fps with one SPE. So, there is definitely progress being made on this front... You can see an old video at www.spugl.com I believe there are others working on rasterisers too...

I'm also doing some rasterization, but nothing too fancy because it's not my main goal. I'm wanting to port some physics code to the Cell and need something to visualize the objects :)

I'm aiming more for per-pixel lighting on polys without textures for my rasterizer. But after seeing that vid, it makes me want to raise the bar a little :)

Maybe you know, maybe you don't, but Mesa3D (the open-source OpenGL implentation) recently started a project to improve it's rendering (also on the PS3's Cell) :

Wikipedia mentions Mesa 3D is migrating to a new driver model, called Gallium3D.

There's word that a Cell Driver is under works. (PS3Coderz also mentioned this a while back.)
You can find download instructions here.


As a matter of fact, I've decided to buy a PS3, solely to ultimately use the linux-port of XBMC (which uses Mesa 3D).
But for that to happen, we should first try to get the best performance we can from the Cell!

[boxbuilder]

It seems like if NVIDIA really wanted to protect their GPU secrets, they would write a blob for ps3 Linux, everyone would install it, and lowlevel RSX research would cease.

[Vincent_M]

If anything, maybe a lot of younger programmer with a PS3 should look at this as an oppurtunity to get back to the basics of 3d graphics. After all, I remember it being a hell of a lot of fun writing my own rasterizer back in the days before 3d accelleration. I reckon a lot of you kids have been spoiled rotten with out-of-the-box rendering and API's.

Time to learn some REAL coding perhaps? (I'm kidding...before I upset anybody)

Man, with all the stuff I've learned on how OpenGL and Direct 3D handles graphics, I could almost maybe write a 3D API. I do not think it would be that hard, but I would miss out on the hardware acceleration in some cases. For example on the PSP, getting vertex weights to work work without hardware support would be easier in my opinion after getting the DirectX .x format's vertex weights to work on the PSP. The point is that I could not possibly use the vertex weight functions provided by its GE (Graphics Engine as it is called). I would not mind writing a 3D API for fun though! It would be nice to tailor it to work with the hardware acceleration of the GPU which brings me to this question...

[rapso]

Don't forget why RSX access is so great too... Textures in extra 256Mb!

Can we still, in 2.10, upload textures in gpu-side ram and have spu based rendering code use textures uploaded in gpu-side ram?

If it's possible, that will be great. If not, there will be an interesting difference between PS3's able to grab RSX access and others... (plenty of free ram in cpu-side ram!)

you probably dont want to do that

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?si ... 05/0933239
http://web.archive.org/web/200703172349 ... widths.jpg

16MB/s read speed.

...

makin a rasterizer (with texturing etc) isn't hard, especially for vector processors, the pain is more to get all the stuff running from "otheros" without linux.
I still did not get any SPU job working. :(