PSP LCD Screen [?]

Awhite · Post by **Awhite** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:10 am

What is the deal with the repsonce time of the lcd screen of psp? It seems like it creates a blur ESPECIALLY on black color :S Try playing a dark video and you'll get the picture :S Any ideas if it's frame-related? i haven't seen it at a game. (well actually i got ridge racer which is bright colored so..)

Post by **ooPo** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:34 am

Ridgeracer is especially blurry on purpose. I think. :)

Red colours do smear around a lot more than would be nice.

psycovirus · Post by **psycovirus** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:34 am

Awhite wrote:What is the deal with the repsonce time of the lcd screen of psp? It seems like it creates a blur ESPECIALLY on black color :S Try playing a dark video and you'll get the picture :S Any ideas if it's frame-related?

Do u mean u can see pixels? it happens because the video is compressed so the quality is dropped...nothing to do with the LCD

Its just like where DvD, which have higher quality, doesn't have pixels especially black areas while a VCD does...

Try encoding ur video at a higher bitrate...

zigzag · Post by **zigzag** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:40 am

ooPo wrote:Ridgeracer is especially blurry on purpose. I think. :)

Red colours do smear around a lot more than would be nice.

I agree, I've done some eye testing and it looks like Ridge Racer is using a motion blur effect on purpose.

The LCD is actually quite quick, I don't see too much smearing.

Post by **ooPo** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:32 am

In the Ridgeracers loading screen you can see a lot of blurring as you drive around.

Grover · Post by **Grover** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:55 pm

Bit of a non issue here - if there was an lcd response problem, it would happen on _anything_ that moves. And Id like to see some digitals of evidence that it does - Im yet to see anything of the sort. Most blurring in RR is on purpose - ie the bits that need to be clear, actually are. And I havent seen anything like that in any movie yet (have converted quite a few).. I think psycovirus is correct, you likely have a blur filter or something happening when converting your movies.

PinkPeach · Post by **PinkPeach** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:45 pm

Well, LCD response time is not uniform. PSP has indeed problems with darks (they stay longer than others). In fact usualy darks take twice the time of lights to disapear, that explains why you can see the blur (black cars looking like they can be visible through walls in RR, verry blurry night traveling in metal gear acid, on dark movies (blade runner for example)).

an example (from toms hardware):
[img]http://graphics.tomshardware.com/displa ... us.png[img]

this is a plague of 19" lcds (good 17" don t have that kind of blur noticeable), and i guess for cost reasons the PSP screen is plagued with that too.

Awhite · Post by **Awhite** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:15 am

What Pinkpeach said :)
The images blurs and blacks take too much time to go away :(
I was not sure, if it's the screen or the video i was playing.
I guess its the screen :(

I'll create a TEST MOVIE. and post a url here.

Grover · Post by **Grover** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:16 am

PinkPeach - showing a graph of a PC LCD has pretty much _zero_ relevance. Also the graph itself is so misleading its not funny - it shows the latency of two different PC LCD's?? How is a response time not uniform? For a single brightness of course they are uniform, otherwise itd be pretty pointless to have transistors operating at x frequency? Look at your THG article - you did read it right? And of course, PC LCD's have extremely small pitch and rediculous brightness ratios to switch too (in excess of 700:1 in as small as 8ms refreshes across 1600 pixels!), so how this compares to PSP?? Please explain?

With smaller screens and _fatter_ pixels and slower refresh rates (wont be higher than that of PS2, so probably 30 or 60fps) response is not going to be an issue, thats why I'd like to see it. The proof is in the viewing - as Ive said if there is a fault, theres no reason a single digital shot of it wont capture it. I can only talk about my PSP - but there is definitely no response time problem at all on it (both in vids and games). Id be keen to see the problem (since Ive made a movie convertor and I dont know if it is this or the persons screen), many people have mentioned it, but noone has shown me the issue.

Im not sure how you seem to think you can get a car visible through a wall because its black with a slow LCD response time - that would have to be one of the oddest ideas Ive ever heard of. Please point me to the article that states this info about 'dark' being twice as slow as light - or are you talking about the TFT gate times? If so, again makes no sense, because if a light (wall) goes over a darker area (car) it simply switches its gate back up to the required value, and the wait is the 'switch on' response time?? Also, you should really quote the article.. rather than just a graph (that has nothing to do with PSP screens) - http://graphics.tomshardware.com/displa ... cd-04.html

If you have a look around at LCD's with large display cells, and small dimensions (manufacturing low density low resolution LCD's is _much_ easier), you'll find that what you are talking about is fluff - however, I look forward to seeing the movie of the problem.

Btw - the reason 19" LCD's have such problems is simply a case of resolution, pitch and refresh rates. (Mostly refresh rates - people wanting 75Hz and more on many millions of transistors - 75Hz = 13ms minimum response time needed to be clear).

pirloui · Post by **pirloui** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:20 am

Grover wrote:I can only talk about my PSP - but there is definitely no response time problem at all on it (both in vids and games). Id be keen to see the problem

it' quite visible though... enough to get afraid there will be no oldsschool emulation to be done because of it.. maybe i exagerate. But it's really visible.

Post by **ooPo** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:24 pm

You really do have to see it in motion to understand, although the Ridgeracer example of seeing a car through a wall can be partially attributed to the blurring effect they're using.

Its not that bad, though... certainly no worse than a gameboy advance.

emiisdev · Post by **emiisdev** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:12 pm

Hi all,

There's definitely ghosting artifacts during gameplay in Vampire Chronicles. I was disappointed when I first saw it and immediately thought the culprit was a poor refresh rate of the display. The ghosting is present during the intro as well as gameplay with certain colors really causing a nasty contrast.

I've seen some videos of Ridge Racer and it's not blurring. It's similar to artifacts that might result from a deinterlaced image constructed between frames. Only in this case, it's a ghost of the previous frame intact, and in varied colors that fade away. Not intentional. The arcade and previous console translations did not have this 'feature'.

I'm looking forward to the games that are being released this month!

Emi ^_^

PinkPeach · Post by **PinkPeach** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:44 pm

Yep, looking back at it (i have finished it long time ago) the blurring is part of the effect in RR but, well i don t really care, it s minor compared to the game quality :) . Popolocrois is plagued with ghosting but the game itself is not fantastic so that s not important :P

I really wonder how Namco Museum behaves. If anyone has information ... :)

Awhite · Post by **Awhite** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:56 am

Ok, the video file is ready! :)
It's a part of garfield, try to play it back on your psp.
TAKE A CLOSE LOOK at the table's feet.(which are black)

Sorry for the zip file, geocities doesn't allow .mp4 files

www.geocities.com/ik_temp/M4V66666.zip

I think it must be the mpeg4 encoding (although i tried various ways, even the IC2).

P.S it actually looks like the color is bleeding or something :S

pirloui · Post by **pirloui** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:08 am

It's the pixels response time... it's really visible in anything that happens on the screen...

Grover · Post by **Grover** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:50 am

Thanks for the example finally. That is pretty obvious - you can see some artefacts from the tail too - although I can see that on the pc, but not the leg issue (likely mpeg). Theres a couple of things that _may_ be contributing to this - the movie is 320x176, whereas PSP is 480x272, which means pixels (when scaled to fullscreen) will be stretched substantially (2.25 times surface area) - this means on playback, the mpeg stream will try to compensate (it does this on moving objects - see tail) - I think this is more than likely what you are seeing. The clue to this.. is that the black is not changing at uniform rates even though the camera is moving uniformly. It changes in 'blocks or chunks', so you get this pulsing.. which if it were LCD issues.. would be more of a consistant continuous general blurring. Imho, I think this is mpeg playback, primarily due to the type of blocking effect it is.

Mind you I think I will trial a few 'test' type movies.. to see what is actually going on here.

Awhite · Post by **Awhite** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:12 am

You do that :)
I actually had tried many formats, 320x240/other res, using 3gp, using IC2.
The problem remains.

Grover · Post by **Grover** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:34 am

I havent gotten to rendering the test films yet - just asking whether you have tried it without psprez? And whether that results in the same problems? I have been going through all my movies, and I cant find one with a similar problem (I have done a substantial number - from movies to rendered gear). And have you used 368x208 (thats what all mine are) with higher bitrates? I noticed your bitrates were low, this can cause various problems too. And Im still interested in the 'darks' lcd problem (I vaguely remember something like this on passive LCD's, but I havent seen anything on TFTs) - Ive googled and cant find much on it - have you got a link I can read about it?

Awhite · Post by **Awhite** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:46 am

Well almost every video file i've used does that kind of stuff on the screen, from constantine trailer, to a video clip of Lindsay Lohan.... Every black item on the screen leaves back trail :S
My videos vary from: 320x240 (non-psprez),352x176,368x208, variable bit rate, quality based, haven't actually tested CBR :(
They were created from divx, mpeg-1.
The trail varies from movie to movie, depending on the size of the black object on the screen, or the movement. But it IS noticeable.
That's all for now.

kemical · Post by **kemical** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:57 am

ridge racers seems to have an effect only happening on the cars, its a simple motion blur, when a car comes around a corner and is covered by a wall in a replay you see the motion blur fade away (which could simply be the last few frames of only the cars being drawn, with low opacity copied over onto the front buffer).

The lcd itself has slight ghosting/trails though.
In namco classics in galaga for example, moving the ship (white on black basically) causes it to dim and blur and there are maybe 3 or 4 pixels of fading trail.

It is a bit annoying since I know lcd's can be better than this, but really i doubt it would stop people from doing homebrew emulation, it doesn't bother me too much.

on an unrelated note, I'd be willing to bet that namco classics emulates the games, due to how they have the test/burn in screens..
it would certainly be neat to somehow find the original rom data inside the file(s) that are shared for game sharing.. and swap it out with another game's rom data which uses the same hardware :) (but that depends on a ton of other acheivements first).

Hazuki · Post by **Hazuki** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:36 am

yea, its pretty bad imo, if you have matrix reloaded, put the fight with all the smiths on, its a high contrast high motion scene, and it aint pretty....

ckyfan · Post by **ckyfan** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:18 pm

are you sure that you have the japanese psp with the sharp lcd and not the samsung lcd i can't see this problem on my psp?!

pdc · Post by **pdc** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:53 pm

Hazuki wrote:yea, its pretty bad imo, if you have matrix reloaded, put the fight with all the smiths on, its a high contrast high motion scene, and it aint pretty....

I would like to see this. Feel free to upload for us *hint hint*

ckyfan wrote:are you sure that you have the japanese psp with the sharp lcd and not the samsung lcd i can't see this problem on my psp?!

I have an early Japanese PSP with the Sharp LCD. Ghosting is terrible. Black especially.

kry.sys · Post by **kry.sys** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:32 am

can someone point me to where this idea that psp's have samsung lcds in them now.

ALL my docs have the sharp product kit listed.. i dont see that they put a samsung lcd in later anywhere.. unless sony thought it wasnt important...

in any case.. all my psps have a sharp in them. then again i dont have a NA psp... yet.

pdc · Post by **pdc** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:44 am

kry.sys wrote:can someone point me to where this idea that psp's have samsung lcds in them now.

ALL my docs have the sharp product kit listed.. i dont see that they put a samsung lcd in later anywhere.. unless sony thought it wasnt important...

in any case.. all my psps have a sharp in them. then again i dont have a NA psp... yet.

if the PSInext forum wasn't quite so dead then I could dig out the article.
Look here for now: http://news.com.com/Sony,+Samsung+compl ... 71407.html
http://eet.com/news/latest/showArticle. ... tid=443533

It is true.
Samsung are also set to provide chips (and other various components) for these 2nd gen PSPs. i.e, the PSPs to be sold in NA/EUR.
IIRC, having Samsung supply the LCDs will lower manufacturing costs.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:23 am

Well, none of those articles say anything about putting Samsung panels into the PSP, though what was said does make it likely, if one tries to read between the lines.

As for Samsung chips in the PSP, they have been in there from the beginning, it just wasn't announced until afterwards. In other words, the PSP memory is a one of Samsung's new multi-chip package memories containing both SDRAM and FLASH.

pdc · Post by **pdc** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:36 am

gorim wrote:As for Samsung chips in the PSP, they have been in there from the beginning, it just wasn't announced until afterwards. In other words, the PSP memory is a one of Samsung's new multi-chip package memories containing both SDRAM and FLASH.

I'm not so sure about this.
The article I read seemed to state that Samsung will be a new supplier of the chips.
This, however, is off-topic and I can't find anything conclusive about it! :^)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:23 pm

pdc wrote: I'm not so sure about this.
The article I read seemed to state that Samsung will be a new supplier of the chips.
This, however, is off-topic and I can't find anything conclusive about it! :^)

Chips used in the PSP are not off-topic. ;)

Anyhow, photos of the PSP mainboard, made with one of the very first released PSP's, clearly show a Samsung memory chip. This is confirmed information. And pretty conclusive.

Even more conclusive (to me at least), a PSP sold within the first week or so was disassembled by yours truly, and it also happened to have the very same Samsung chip, fortunately.

Now, there may very well be some other chips that Samsung could provide, though not quite sure what they may be, besides memory. Perhaps if there is a separate LCD driver chip, that could be one, though I suspect the LCD panel driver is integrated onto one of the Sony chips.
The only other "name-brand" chip of significance on the mainboard is a Fujitsu chip, perhaps a micro-controller, but I haven't researched it as yet.

So perhaps your news source is reporting outdated information, or something common in the gaming industry - incorrect information.

kry.sys · Post by **kry.sys** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:21 pm

The problem exists when people continue to circulate rumors they get off a site that has no editorial staff and make a habbit of posting false information cause they dont get paid to do otherwise like a REAL news site. this is why i HATE blogs. a filthy playground for false information.

take notes children.. this is how you push information... this is whats called a press release... make sure it exists before talking about it as if its true.

http://www.samsung.com/us/Products/Semi ... 094215.asp

as of january 15 2005 samsung says they already shipped these chips in the same quater...

MY SPECULATION IS (see that... im announcing my speculations) that these were shipped to sony ealier in the quater and under NDA werent really allowed to realease a lot of info prior to product release.

other speculations welcome in another thread...

p.s. sorry for the extreme negitivity... i get mad when i waste time researching false info.[/img]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:40 pm

And as of Jan 11, we were already discussing it, which was discussed in detail on Japanese blogs the previous days. :)

http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php?t=935

forums.ps2dev.org

PSP LCD Screen [?]

PSP LCD Screen [?]

Re: PSP LCD Screen [?]

`

Re: `